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Discussion group Tolerance in Faith Reform-oriented members of the NAK


1 discussion group Tolerance in Faith Reform-oriented members of the NAK Meeting with the chairman of the AG History of the NAK Apostle Drave in the Hamburg church administration on the memorial protocol Discussion topic: The work of the AG History of the NAK with a focus on the support of the SED ruling apparatus by the New Apostolic Church , Brother M. from Berlin, Brother Olaf Wieland from Hamburg from the discussion group Tolerance in Faith. Place of discussion: Church administration of the NAK Hamburg-Eppendorf, Abendrothsweg 20, Hamburg Duration of conversation: o'clock (The participants in the conversation are marked in the minutes with the first letters of their surnames Immediately or promptly after the conversation and supplemented from memory in the following time. Assessments of the individual statements were not made. Statements that touch the purely private sphere of the conversation participants, e.g. family, health, are not mentioned hnung.) D .: >> Be welcome, please. << M .: >> Thank you for the friendly reception. But before I wanted to say maybe like a little prayer of an excluded apostle and emphasize as our basic maxim I couldn't find any better words, as the apostle Güttinger put it, that we are concerned with the truth. In the bi-monthly publication of the Apostolic Congregation Der Herold of January 15, 1955, the Apostle Güttinger writes impressive words on the pages in the article For the sake of truth. I quote: For the sake of the truth, heated battles have already been fought, with the pen, the word, and the sword. According to Jesus, the devil is the father of lies. >> He is the murderer from the beginning and has failed in the truth; for the truth is not in him; when he speaks the lie, he speaks of his own << (John 8:44). According to this, the lie has its origin with the devil and the truth with God. Whoever speaks the truth speaks God's words. The truth can hurt, it is a bitter herb for many, but it sets us free. When a person is caught in error, it often takes a great deal of time to be cleared by the truth. The truth can, however, be cloaked with humanities, even interspersed with errors. The spirit of truth, proceeding from God, will divide the spirits. Whoever loves God must also love the truth, be attached to it, stand up for it and be a servant of the truth himself. 1

2 This is what our dear Apostle Güttinger said. The in-house magazine Our Family even paid tribute to him in two special issues 22 and 23 from the year This means that this apostle was given the highest esteem. Until 2005, I did not know of any apostle who had received such a double-edition award. (Note: The two issues of 1934 were held up to the Apostle Drave.) D .: >> That was Ernst Güttinger? Is it Otto Güttinger? << M .: >> That was from Otto Güttinger. << D .: >> That was the son? Can you tell me the date again? << M .: >> 15. January 1955 published in Der Herold on the pages << D .: >> Yes, I can classify that. We are here in the house that Apostle Weinmann built in connection with the construction of the Eppendorfer Church. When the first floor below was finished, it slowly but surely continued to grow and now this building is completely confiscated for administration. Does the name Weinmann mean anything to you? << M .: >> The Apostle Weinmann is known to me as a writer about his book 100 Years of the NAK. In my opinion, a good job and definitely the best work that has ever been published in New Apostolic literature. The reader can find out more because the sources are given. << W .: >> Dr. Albrecht Schröter was therefore very happy to quote from this book by Apostle Weinmann, because it is a serious and, in contrast to other publications of the NAK, where sources are unscientificly omitted, a differentiated presentation of the history of the NAK. M .: >> In many New Apostolic writings, the date of publication is not even mentioned. << D .: >> Yes, that happens when you write a scientific paper or a journalistic article. Apostle Weinmann wanted to write a scientific paper. << M .: >> I could name many writings in which the year of publication was not given. Those who are really interested in the siblings then have to laboriously research themselves. << D .: >> Some things are actually without a date of publication. << M .: >> That is unfortunately true. << D .: >> But since around 20 For years you have been trying slowly. << M .: >> It would start to seem ridiculous if you didn't do it. << D .: >> Perhaps I can briefly introduce myself so that you can find out something about my person. Let me briefly say that I actually received all offices from Apostle Weinmann, except for the apostle ministry. I got that from Chief Apostle Urwyler in So I came as a student from Hanover to Hamburg to do history here

3 study. Apostle Weinmann, who had known the Drave family from the old generations, then got the point that a historian was walking around and then he won me over to be a bit active here in our archive as well. From 1965 I can look back on all the events that occurred in the Apostle district of Hamburg. I can also provide general information on historical events and questions about the New Apostolic Church. You quoted Güttinger with his plea for the truth. I got that. But it is a statement after he was expelled. That happened in the middle of 1954. << M .: >> Well, it was only an introductory statement from my side to clarify our basic attitude. I thank you for your understanding. Brother Wieland has a set of questions that need to be dealt with. << W .: >> I will try to work through my questions quickly. << D .: >> One hour was planned. << M .: >> It's okay. << D .: >> We cannot do without an appointment. << W .: >> I have been researching the history of the NAK in the former GDR for a long time. Two articles were published in this context. A larger article appeared on July 11, 2004 in the weekly Protestant newspaper Die Kirche for Berlin, Brandenburg and Silesian Upper Lusatia and subsequently on July 21, 2004 in the weekly Protestant newspaper IdeaSpektrum. D .: >> Written by you? << W .: >> An interview was conducted with me and an article was subsequently written by an editor of the evangelical weekly magazine with the highest circulation for the German-speaking Europe, IdeaSpektrum, with the heading Sect Supported National Socialists as well as the SED Regime Accusation: Leading new apostoles were Stasi IM . The research team of our discussion group discovered that New Apostolic apostles had acted as IM of the GDR security organs. The question arose how to deal with this uncanny legacy. Reconciliation is a nice word, but before reconciliation a dispute must take place and the New Apostolic church leadership must take a position, as has long been done by the major churches in this matter. << D .: >> With the matter. << W .: >> About an open letter from the discussion group on Tolerance in Faith dated July 20, 2004 to the then District Apostle and today's Chief Apostle Dr. Wilhelm Leber and, on August 20, 2004, to District Apostle Willy Adam, formerly IM Willy, the matter should be clarified or dealt with. The answers to the open letters did not do justice to the questions, but the problem was postponed. Specific questions remained unanswered. The District Apostle i. R. Adam as the person concerned delegated his responsibility to the apostle Böttcher without justification. Inevitably, the impression arose that the stasis of the 3

4 New Apostolic Church Leadership. Now I have a few questions for you as the chairman of the NAK History Working Group. Your opinion should then flow into the research work, which should appear soon. << D .: >> Aha. Did you work in the scientific interest and did you come across the materials with this justification? << W .: >> Correct. I would like to mention that I was referred to you by Apostle Quittenbaum and Apostle Kühnle. << D .: >> You said that on the phone. Apostle Quittenbaum is now retired. Do you know that? << M .: >> We know that. We were in Halle with many other interested parties from the NAK and took part in the study conference with Prof. Helmut Obst, Dr. Albrecht Schröter and representatives of apostolic communities. << D .: >> You are working on this project in a purely scientific manner? << W .: >> We are concerned with the truth. Our church's testimony of truth has been damaged. I have already mentioned that I work in the scientific interest. << M .: >> We are New Apostolic church members and therefore strive to identify with our church. That's why we also feel emotionally affected. << D .: >> I think so too. But what kind of discussion group is it that is involved in this matter? I have little idea. << W .: >> The discussion group consists of members of the NAK from various communities in Hamburg and the surrounding area and also from Berlin. is interested in coming to terms with the history of the NAK. << D .: >> And what's his name? << W .: >> Tolerance in faith. << D .: >> Does that include a Thomas A.? Do you know him? << W .: >> I know Brother Thomas A. He is not one of the members of the discussion group on Tolerance in Faith. D .: >> So that's something else again? << W .: >> I want to explain that to you. Some time ago, Brother Thomas A. initiated a discussion group under the name Church are WE too !. I was a member there too. This discussion group was then inactive for a longer period of time. I wanted to pursue the topic of coming to terms with history and founded a group of committed New Apostolic brothers and sisters myself. We work on the history of the NAK and also deal with the problems of siblings who, with the tolerance of the church leadership, were marginalized and isolated because they expressed their opinions critically or 4

5 who have fallen victim to the NAK's exclusive claim to exclusivity and who suffer mentally as a result. << D .: >> I think it's nice that you tell me very clearly what your interests are. << W .: >> Yes, dealing with history, creating transparency and eliminating existing systemic fear structures. Simply live being a Christian in the Christian sense. << D .: >> A high standard. Has your work developed so far that you will soon be able to publish the results? << W .: >> Yes. << M .: >> Mr. Wieland is on. << D .: >> I don't want to question you. I approach the question as a historian and as an apostle, and from the last page also as a defender. It is no wonder that I am partial because I am also convinced of the cause I am pursuing. There is a certain tension. As a historian, one has an obligation to truth. I will tie in with what you read from Güttinger. Are you committed and that is why the Birthler authorities gave you the right to inspect files? << W .: >> Yes. In addition, I inform you that I originally come from the former GDR, I moved to Hamburg-Eppendorf and started training in the medical field at the University Hospital Hamburg-Eppendorf, which ended in 1995. << D .: >> Then you have it Experienced time until the turnaround. But then you still went to school? << W .: >> I was born in 1965. << D .: >> That's almost twenty years, you were twenty-four years there! << W .: >> After the peaceful revolution in the GDR, in which the NAK had no part, has always occupied me as a socially ethical Christian and I am amazed that this period is hushed up in the history of the NAK. The same applies to the time of National Socialism. We hope that through our commitment the church leadership of the NAK will find the courage to stand by its past and draw appropriate conclusions from it. << D .: >> You want to come up with scientific findings and incorporate what we are now discussing into your considerations ? << W .: >> Yes, that is correct. I was always referred to you during discussions with officials and siblings, and that's why I made an appointment to get clarity about the NAK's position. You rarely or never get an answer from the church leadership to inquiries by letter. There was no reaction at all to the 18-page open letter from to Chief Apostle Fehr, let alone an interim message. 5

6 The letter of May 8, 2005 from Dr. Albrecht Schröter to Chief Apostle Fehr was not answered. This is a deliberate ignorance on the part of the New Apostolic church leadership. However, Chief Apostle Leber emphasized in an interview published in the Pentecost brochure Unanimously in the Spirit: Internal church communication must be decisively improved. D .: >> Right. << W .: >> Yes, he was interviewed and criticized the grievance himself. But that has not yet reached the ministers, otherwise one would act correctly. << D .: >> I think it's nice that you want to contribute to the discovery of the truth and remove any obstacles that exist in the church by giving impulses or maybe provoke the results that we don't even know. I am looking forward to the publication. << W .: >> Due to the refusal of the New Apostolic church leadership, the publication will be critical, but not discrediting. We don't want that. << D .: >> A scientific paper must also be structured according to scientific criteria. Polemics don't stand a chance. << W .: >> Polemics don't stand a chance. That's so. So that it does not become polemical, the church leadership also needs to work, which should not limit itself to whitewashing or just apologetics. A public and internal confession of guilt for the support policy of the NAK for the criminal NS policy and the support of injustice structures in the SED state GDR is imperative for the internal self-cleaning process of the NAK. The siblings and especially the youth want to identify with a credible church. You miss the necessary depth in the dispute. I will now ask my prepared questions and start with a very specific one. Everything relates to the research work NAK in the GDR, 1. When and in what form will the work results of the PG History of the NAK on the subject of NAK in the GDR be published? D .: >> A good question. If I could answer that. << W .: >> The so-called Catechism of the NAK, if the red booklet Questions and Answers about the New Apostolic Faith can be described as the Catechism of the NAK, should be improved or renewed and the number 2008 is mentioned here . << D .: >> I cannot name such a number. << W .: >> Is there no objective? << D .: >> That is rooted in the matter. I want to explain that. My brothers, the timing of publication depends on how we can get hold of the materials. Officially, the institution of the church submitted an application to the Gauck authorities from Zurich in 2000. The International New Apostolic Church submitted the application and I as the lead 6

7 The chairman of the History Working Group had to experience that it was only in 2004 that we were sent institution-related materials. It is a fact. Before, we only had the source type of the church's internal materials available. But there are other sources as well. This is personal data that we cannot access at all. How did you get it? << W .: >> If you work seriously in the interests of science and submit a corresponding research application in compliance with the Stasi Records Act, you can also get personal documents. Spies, informers or IMs of the GDR security organs are then announced in the course of the research by the Birthler authority, as it happened to the then Bishop of the NAK Willy Adam, code name IM Willy, and the Apostle Kortüm, code name Kurt Sigmund. The still living and former IM District Apostle i. R. Adam from Mecklenburg refuses to give a personal statement. Your colleague Apostle Böttcher even received the order from Chief Apostle Fehr at the time to take care of the matter. He persistently remains silent about IM Apostle Kortüm. After the application of the New Apostolic Church International and the receipt of relevant documents on the NAK, you would have had to act as the leading chairman of the NAK history working group if you wanted to get access to personal data of NAK officials. What did you do? << D .: >> We are oriented differently. We now have to choose the way that we can only access personal data with the consent of the persons concerned. That is the requirement of the authority. We really try everything to seriously access the person-oriented data.We have to go this detour so that we get declarations of consent from people who were responsible in the GDR at the time. << M .: >> But if they have died, you can't get declarations of consent. The unofficial employee of the Stasi District Apostle Kortüm has already died. << D .: >> I cannot answer that. << W .: >> Why did our brother in faith Michael Koch get access to the personal data? << D. : >> I don't know. You have different information. Did you negotiate with a regional authority? << W .: >> With the central authority in Berlin, where the New Apostolic Church International also submitted its application. << D .: >> Exactly this authority gave me the information that the personal data can only be accessed with the consent of the person concerned. The problem is that we don't even have the originals. We cannot work on a source analysis that comes to us in a secondary way. I can only assume that in Berlin one is more limited in the interpretation of the possibilities, as you may have experienced. What I am saying is a fact. The crux of the matter is the personal data. Everything that concerns the institution of the church is evaluated by me in 7

8 Cooperation with the Apostle Böttcher. I will not bring all attributions to the public if they are not historically evaluated in research. We work seriously and scientifically correct. << M .: >> As I can see, Brother Wieland might be more likely to publish a historical work on our church than you. You have nothing. << W .: >> My suggestion is that for the sake of the church there should be a regular review of church employees, specifically all ministers from the community leader to the district apostle. << D .: >> What is that? << W .: >> The Protestant Church, for example, had officials of their church checked for possible collaboration in the Ministry of State Security. The East German bishops of the Catholic Church set up a commission at the beginning of 1993 with the task of investigating the issue of the Stasi and the Catholic Church. << M .: >> The Protestant Church started in 1990. You started ten years earlier. << W .: >> Therefore my second question: 2. Why was an application for file inspection made to the Birthler authority only ten years after the archives were opened? << D .: >> I would like to answer your question like this. The study of historical questions in our church is very recent. We only have a working group history since there was hardly any thought about historical questions. That is in the structure of our church. We are brothers in faith and that is why we are concerned with the coming of the Lord. Attempts have been made to prepare the congregation for this and it was not necessary to look back on historical developments. << M .: >> But the Apostle Weinmann looked back. That could have been continued nicely. He is a role model. << D .: >> That was an exception. You're right. If we have only started with the AG story since 1999, then we as an AG have received many orders, such as B. the GDR. We have been commissioned in 1863 to review our origins. We all work on a voluntary basis. You have to imagine that this sets limits purely in terms of the volume of work. << M .: >> Wouldn't it be appropriate then for you to hire a real historian? It would work out for a year and then you would have the story on the table. But if you only do partial work here. << D .: >> That is not a partial work. Now you are attacking me personally. << M .: >> So far we haven't seen anything. << 8

9 D .: >> I can only tell you the status. I try to work through the matter with experts. That's how it is. << W .: >> Who are the volunteer experts? << D .: >> Now is not the place to name the members. I have to ask the members of the working group first. In general, the question now is how you deal with the results of the conversation? << W .: >> Immediately after this conversation, a detailed memory log is created with the help of the recorded conversation notes. << D .: >> And where do you publish it? < > That will not be published immediately. << D .: >> Not at all. I like that. If we want to continue working together and there is no point in bringing an interim result to the public. I would also be happier if it went faster. << W .: >> What other archives come into consideration in your research besides those already mentioned by you? << D .: >> That will find out when the materials from the Birthler authority are completely available. << W .: >> You mean, the materials of the Birthler authority are very informative in this respect? << D .: >> First of all I will start with the scientific literature. There are also many publications on the relationship between the churches in the GDR. << M .: >> Mr. Wieland cited many of these publications in his open letter to the Chief Apostle from. He talked to competent scientists personally and had that confirmed. << D .: >> Then you have taken the step on which I am now sitting. I am busy e.g. B. with Besier. This is a professor and he solves the matter scientifically. In any case, the Birthler authority has been tapped. But if you know, are there still regional opportunities? << W .: >> You have to compete with the NAK, the Evangelical Church in Germany. That would be my tip. << D .: >> Do you think so? Honest? Are you already on this trail? << M .: >> You mustn't forget the following. At that time the Prussian state had to observe two churches, the Evangelical and the Catholic Church. He did that in great detail. There are letters complaining about the ringing of bells. The state stood in the middle and asked both parties to come to an agreement. There are minutes from the ministries at that time. All sects were observed. The cult system has sprouted since 1848 and numerous ministerial officials and consistorial councilors 9

10 dealt with it, e.g. B. with the Jehovah's Witnesses, with the Johannische Kirche around Joseph Weißenberg and in this connection also with the New Apostolic Congregation and its numerous splits. In the GDR, the NAK was of course also monitored by the Evangelical Church and the Ministry for State Security (MfS). Church Council Dr. Kurt Hutten, as a sect specialist and author of the standard work on the sects, seers, brooders, enthusiasts and later Prof. Helmut Obst, as Protestant Christians, wrote about the NAK in an extremely serious and professional manner. For example, during our research, a cover letter with a check and check number and the Sparkasse of the City of East Berlin from Apostle Schröder turned up, which a year before the fall of the GDR was enough to give the Armenian People's Republic a hundred thousand Ostmarks without the knowledge of the siblings I still have a lot to do. Am I correct that I am relieved of a lot of work and that I am indebted to you? << M .: >> Yes, you still have a lot of catching up to do. << W .: >> However, your level of knowledge does not do credit to the history group. << D .: >> You can of course cannibalize it and present it pointedly. << M .: >> We don't want to cannibalize that at all. A major flaw in our church is that the church leadership does not approach the grassroots, the little people. The Protestant church leadership works together with its members. She listens carefully when the parishioners have something to say or a concern has been brought up to the church leadership or the Diakonie leadership. Working groups are formed in which the parishioners and the church leadership work together in a fraternal manner. Inquiries are recorded, processed and answered. Suggestions for improvement are checked and implemented. I have a book in your hands called Slave with a wonderful foreword by Bishop Huber. It's about the following: The Protestant Church has employed forced laborers in the Berlin area, especially in the Neukölln cemetery. Protestant project groups now deal with this fact, which, unlike the New Apostolic project groups, do not consist of unknown members of higher circles of ministers or the apostle level - similar to a screened top elite - but the small members themselves research for three to four years. As a result of this research, Bishop Huber, in cooperation with the Diakonie, approved finances in the millions. The Protestant study group personally traveled to Belarus, the Ukraine and areas of the former Soviet Union and not only shook hands with the people, but also handed over the money as a symbolic gesture of reparation. During this research work, the evangelical parishioners, the little people of the grassroots, researched in the Christian sense and did good. << D .: >> For me that would be the last step of the investigation, the questioning of contemporary witnesses. This is called oral history. << M .: >> There is another important contemporary witness, namely District Apostle i. R. Adam. << D .: >> You spoke of the common people. How has the individual fared in the church? The senior level is interesting. Let's keep in mind that there is still a lot to be done. << 10

11 W .: >> Did you take note of the open letter from to the Chief Apostle? If the Chief Apostle says that we have to improve the communication structures within the church, then you must have had the open letter on your table too? << D .: >> I read the interview. << W .: >> And the open letter is not known to you? Then the internal church communication structures are really not fully developed. The Chief Apostle is right with his criticism. << D .: >> That can be. Briefly give the content of the open letter. << W .: >> The open letter from addresses the support policy of the New Apostolic church leadership towards the SED state, the church leadership's open commitment to the criminal Nazi state and the unchristian behavior towards their own critical members as well as those who think differently. << D .: >> How could I have got that? << W .: >> Via the media officer of the NAK Peter Johanning. The open letter was sent to him on for information by registered mail with the request to present it to the Chief Apostle. There was no answer from him. The requested interim report was also not received. This is the way in which committed siblings from the grassroots who are critical are dealt with. The church leadership need not be surprised at resistance, because it does not work for the better. The fatal thing is, the letter of May 8, 2005 from Dr. Albrecht Schröter to the Chief Apostle also went unanswered. This is an affront to Dr. Johannes Albrecht Schröter, the author of the book The Catholic Apostolic Congregations in Germany and the `Fall Geyer`. Prof. Helmut Obst describes this work as a standard work not only for the history of the Catholic Apostolic Congregations, but also for the early history of the NAK and other apostolic communities. << D .: >> Do you think that the procedure of the Open Letter is correct? < > Yes, because the open letter exerts beneficial pressure on the New Apostolic church leadership to give its specific answers to the question of coming to terms with it. The open letter is still there to educate the general public and not to discredit. << D .: >> If you had told me that personally, I would have replied immediately. That is clear. If I had officially received this from you through the church leadership, then I would have answered too. It depends on the procedure of the open letter. << D .: >> Consult the district evangelist Johanning again. << M .: >> He has everything. Why should we consult him again? << W .: >> Or I will present the letter to you and you will answer. << D .: >> Could be. << 11

12 W .: >> My third question. << 3. Why do you still refer to the Potsdam archive today when this archive has been incorporated into the federal archive? M .: >> It's about the Frankfurt lantern. There is a letter of apology from Dr. Eberhard and there is always a reference to the Potsdam archive. It's a laughing stock when you read it on the Internet today. It is as if the GDR and Honecker still exist. They don't even give the signature of the sources. If you want to work scientifically, you would have to pay attention to it. << W .: >> This is a technical mistake. << D .: >> From the press officer. No, it's my fault. I went to Potsdam for various reasons. What is that called today? << M .: >> Federal Archives. It has been in Finckensteinallee since 1998. << D .: >> That's right. What did he write there? << W .: >> On the homepage of the NACI under News from the heading PG History: Arguments in the newspaper article must be refuted in all points! the sentence: This can be found in documents that are kept in the Federal Archives in Potsdam. A corresponding inventory signature is not specified. The Potsdam Federal Archives were integrated into the Central Berlin Federal Archives. << M .: >> I was still in the Berlin Federal Archives today and asked about the Frankfurt lantern and the party associations. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything on the film rolls. I was told that the area of ​​the Federal Archives Berlin is 12 hectares, has its own chapel and 1.6 million books are available. All newspapers are available, the SED press organ Neues Deutschland, all Nazi newspapers such as B. Der Stürmer, the library of Wilhelm Pieck, Clara Zetkin, Karl Liebknecht etc. A total of 185 km of files are stored in the Federal Archives in Berlin. << D .: >> I don't do everything myself, I ask one or the other for myself to check. It was probably my fault that I wrote Potsdam. But the documents belong to the National Socialism complex? << M .: >> But everything is centralized in Finckensteinallee in Zehlendorf. << D .: >> Zehlendorf? There was the American Document Center. << M .: >> The Germans have taken it over. Before it was a German cadet institute. The officers were trained in Prussia and then under Hitler. Adolf Hitler's Leibstandarte was stationed there. After the liberation by the Red Army, the complex was handed over from the Soviet to the American armed forces. There are also documents about Friedrich Bischoff and his party membership in the NSDAP in the Federal Archives. He entered on and did not receive his ID until August 15, 1937. The question arises, why did he get the ID so late? 12th

13 The clerk told me that you could get your ID within two years. After more than four years is a long time, but it has to do with various points. << W .: >> If we were to apply for support for our research work, which decision would you make? << D .: >> You can I do not reside. Which group should be supported? << W .: >> The discussion group Tolerance in Faith. Today's Chief Apostle Leber wrote to me in his capacity as District Apostle in 2004: I would appreciate it if you could publish your research results in a suitable form. << D .: >> My answer is: Chief Apostle Leber is still in his Status as District Apostle. He is responsible and has to decide. << M .: >> There is currently no responsible District Apostle in Hamburg? District Apostle Schumacher is seriously ill. D .: >> The Apostle Schumacher is not yet ordained. << M .: >> But he is still District Apostle, similar to Chief Apostle Bischoff. The files show that Chief Apostle Bischoff was responsible for the Frankfurt district and at the same time he was the main leader of the Apostle College of the Apostolic Congregations. << D .: >> Walter Schmidt also had Westphalia as a border area. << M .: >> I'm counting now as a pensioner to the older siblings. In the past I have been very committed to the process of opening up our church and I will continue to do so. Our conversation is the best proof of that. What particularly bothers me is the uncritical adoption of Nazi expressions in New Apostolic apologetics. A biography of Chief Apostle Walter Schmidt appeared. The editor at the time was Chief Apostle Fehr and the author was Susanne Scheibler. The biography was created with the help of Apostle Friedrich Wömpner, with a certain Alfred Krempf helping with the procurement of the documents. In the treatise, a saying is quoted that Chief Apostle Bischoff said to District Apostle Schmidt: We have to purge the foreign body. It hurts a lot and it has to be done, because once it has come out, the body can recover. I had heard this phrase before in connection with the Nazi era. I went to the Jewish community in Berlin. I had twenty volumes presented to me on the language of German fascism in which I did not find anything. A rabbi kindly offered to help me in my search. I explained to him that the head of the NAC Chief Apostle Bischoff made a remark about the Apostle Walter Schmidt that leading Nazi bigwigs used to like very much.The rabbi instructed his librarian to please go to the archive cellar and look on shelf 37 and take the book Vocabulary of National Socialism there. When the rabbi could not find anything concrete after looking through the book, he gave his librarian the keyword Propaganda Minister Goebbels and instructed her again to fetch the volume of Goebbels speeches from the archive cellar from shelf 37, especially Goebbels speeches from the last and not from the beginning. He immediately found the quote from Goebbels, where he spoke of escapists in a speech in Posen. Now ask 13

14 I you as the apostle and chairman of the PG history of the NAK, how this usage was still accepted without criticism in 1997, because the rider was about your brother, the apostle Kuhlen. The rabbi was amazed at the mental attitude in which New Apostolic ministers still show themselves today. I would like to say that there is a new Jewish Museum in Berlin. It would be appropriate for the New Apostolic youth to expand their knowledge in this area of ​​our history by visiting the museum or having conversations and discussions during the youth hours. During the Nazi era, the NAK was anything but a friend of the Jewish people. There is evidence that Brother Wieland's grandfather stood up for Jewish citizens by providing them with shelter and shelter at great risk. This attitude was disregarded in the NAK. << D .: >> I answer you in my capacity as a Germanist. Goebbels used imagery that was not originally nationalistic. He took them from different linguistic backgrounds. The actual origins of these metaphors have to be researched further. << M .: >> Nevertheless, that does not explain that this inhuman way of speaking was still uncritically introduced into the biography of a Chief Apostle in 1997, because it was about the expulsion of Apostle Kuhlen. << D .: >> You use common linguistic expressions yourself. << M .: >> We heard the word foreign workers from Oskar Lafontaine. There was great outrage. The NAK continues to stand by the fact that Chief Apostle Kuhlen and other confreres had to be sidelined in high office. << W .: >> That does not fit with the New Apostolic faith. That is unchristian. << M .: >> I have other files from archives that are not accessible to you, where Chief Apostle Bischoff clearly uses a fascist language. These are his thoughts, of which he was convinced and whose cause he has pursued. He also speaks of communist elements that need to be eliminated. After 20 years, Chief Apostle Bischoff is still speaking in this Nazi jargon and it is even tolerated and passed on. A denazification in spirit had probably not taken place in Chief Apostle Bischoff after 1945. << D .: >> It was just like that. Your language is also related to time. It is the same with all people. They assume that he was aware that he was touching the ideas of National Socialism. << M .: >> I am not assuming it. << D .: >> A simple example from me. If I keep talking about the negro today, then for us today it is a term of a certain downward order. << M .: >> That is correct. But I don't want to pre-empt the research that we have. There it is documented that Chief Apostle Bischoff worked in the interests of the National Socialists. He also sought the persecution of critical members of the NAK by the NS organs. Various ministries have put this together. << 14

15 W .: >> Our apostle Sepers emphasized that National Socialism had crept into the NAK. << D .: >> This has to be discussed scientifically. My brothers, I see your point of view very clearly. << M .: >> We have the files. That is the file situation. << D .: >> What do you want? What is your interest? Why are you coming Inquire about the state of affairs? << W .: >> We would like to encourage you to the truth. It's about our church. The NAK has to take a stand if something has gone wrong and make corrections accordingly. It owes that to its members. You condemn the use of the term negro. Not long ago, however, District Apostle Saur used the term negro several times in a youth service and even put it down in writing. In the form of a funny story, District Apostle Saur told how you, as a New Apostolic minister, drove your car over a sleeping Negro. << M .: >> You drove over it and laughed half-dead. << D .: >> There I have now probably hit the bull's eye. << W .: >> This monstrous incident occurred to me as soon as you mentioned the word negro. This incident was condemned with disgust and indignation on various Internet forums. The New Apostolic church leadership did not distance itself from this incident. << D .: >> A very difficult matter. Some terms are emotionally charged. That was not the case before. I used to do academic research on Nazi literature, on contemporary novels and poetry of the years. The National Socialists had a very differentiated method of dealing with religious terms. This language then also had an effect on ordinary people. That is a linguistic phenomenon. << M .: >> Now to your extensive treatise on the being asleep. You created this in collaboration with the apostle Günter Knobloch. You probably know that Apostle Knobloch was a member of the NSDAP. << D .: >> Apostle Knobloch was a member of the NSDAP? No, it is impossible. I don't think so. << (Note: Apostle Drave looked frightened and indignant). M .: >> Belief is not knowledge. We can believe down in the nave, but up here in the office, factual knowledge counts. The apostle Knobloch was admitted to the NSDAP on April 20, 1943 under the number. The Fuehrer and Reich Chancellor Adolf Hitler had his birthday exactly on the day of the apostle Knobloch's admission to the NSDAP. The apostle Knobloch couldn't have made a nicer gift for Hitler when he joined the Nazi party. The NSDAP index card is in front of me here, as well as the index card of Apostle Friedrich Bischoff with a personal photo. His entry date was very early in the year Hitler came to power on May 1, 1933 under the membership number

16 We talked about the dormant being, which as a secret work on 14./15. It was handed over to Chief Apostle Urwyler in Zurich on the occasion of a District Apostle meeting on April 1st, 1986. The book The Dormant with its 500 pages was to remain the property of the NAK and was therefore passed on to a successor, i.e. District Apostle. With this, all apostles of the end times were excluded from this knowledge of rulership. The secret writing came to the public only through the betrayal of the District Apostle and is now even on the Internet. I'll show you a poster from the central church of Protestantism, the Berlin Cathedral. << D .: >> What do you mean by that? << M .: >> I know young people from New Apostolic Berlin who live in demolished houses, wagon castles, apartment houses, bunkers (Russian barracks in Wünsdorf) and living ships live illegally because they were rejected by their strict New Apostolic parents. I'm putting a picture of a punk in front of you so that you can get an idea of ​​what these people look like. These young people are welcome to take any action to express their displeasure. This includes a targeted attack on the Berlin Cathedral in order to chisel off the New Apostolic Christians Martin Luther, Melanchton, Calvin and Zwingli, who were sealed there by Apostle Schwarz, and to lead them to their true destination, the New Apostolic Central Church in Berlin on Münsterlandstrasse. There they should be placed in front of the altar so that they can be seen by all New Apostolic Christians, because they are no longer Protestant. I tried to dissuade them from their plan with many six packs of beer and wine bottles. << (Note: The memorial protocol was finalized at the end of November 2005. Brother M. tried to contact the young people. He only found one young person with about 25 dogs and cats that can no longer be counted. When asked where the other young people went, the answer was: >> Everyone is in France for the big happening party to have fun. << Brother M. was Deeply shocked by the excesses of the fun society of New Apostolic youth. The French President was also shocked by the lack of stability of his youth. It was only after a long time that he took a position on television. Even major politicians in European countries have lost touch with the majority of the youth. Brother M. continued the condition of the dogs and cats and gave the youngster a large amount of food for the animals ). D .: >> I can only take note of what you have said. You are not known to me. << W .: >> I come to a fundamental question. How do you judge or evaluate a spy activity as IM senior high official of the NAK? << D .: >> I ran into a problem. I made the observation that the person who was named IM by the authorities did not really perceive that he was such a person. Do I see that as a problem? << W .: >> But District Apostle Kortüm has verifiably given a declaration of consent to his IM activity. << D .: >> How did he give it? << 16

17 W .: >> As was often the case with church representatives, the declaration of consent was given orally by handshake. He sealed his consent to conspiratorial cooperation through an agreement and a handshake. This is clearly documented by the Stasi documents. << M .: >> Where did they meet conspiratorially? In the rooms of the NAK or where? << W .: >> The District Apostle Kortüm with the code name Kurt Sigmund has regularly gathered in conspiratorial apartments to transmit information in order to protect himself from his own siblings. So one cannot say that he did not know that he was visiting a conspiratorial apartment for his intelligence services. This argument from former IMs is mainly used as a protective claim. The argument is old, sweeping and trite. If you look at the history of the two German dictatorships, this sentence often appears to protect the perpetrators and to mock the victims. It is simply just a lie. << D .: >> I would make an assessment of IM activity on two levels: 1. A historical assessment, as is common practice. 2. A belief-related, ethical evaluation. << W .: >> What does the belief-related, ethical evaluation look like? << M .: >> May I throw in something quickly. We have many brothers and sisters who are concerned that their seals are now legally invalid before God. They say who eats with the devil and uses long spoons, i.e. who preaches on Sunday mornings from p.m. to p.m. and Sunday afternoons from p.m. to p.m. and reports to his commanding officer on internal matters of the Church and siblings on Sunday evening, accepts personal perks, and tells more than he ever said should tell, he is not worthy to be allowed to donate the exclusive New Apostolic sacrament of sealing. They mean that basically it should be re-sealed. The spy apostle sealed the seal, but it is not legally valid before God. These brothers and sisters fear that they will not be able to participate on the day of the first resurrection and will have to stand in front of the locked wedding door. << D .: >> Where do these questions arise? This is completely new to me. << W .: >> From our siblings. One cannot serve two masters. Support injustice on the one hand and praise ourselves as the restored work of redemption of our God on the other. In doing so, the NAK makes itself a mockery. If an office holder is in divorce, then he is no longer allowed to preach from the altar to his siblings during this time. << D .: >> He is on leave. << W .: >> Why is a divorce from office holders rated worse than a cooperation with the Stasi? << D .: >> There is still no reaction. We have to work that out and then there will be a response. The historical assessment must first be made. Then it is considered how to deal with it ethically and faith-based. I don't decide that. << M .: >> Should one reseal? << 17

18 D .: >> That is the question. If it really was so historically, then that would be a question that concerns all apostles. << M .: >> But not the apostles in Africa. What do they have to do with the Stasi? << D .: >> The question will certainly occupy the District Apostles. << W .: >> It has already been evaluated by serious historians and scientists in public. << D .: >> But not through us. We must first have our own rights. << W .: >> The rule of law of the Stasi Records Act is guaranteed and valid for the whole of Germany. << D .: >> I made it clear that the materials must be evaluated. << W. : >> Serious experts perceive church Stasi cooperation as a fact that has and had devastating consequences for Christian credibility. Who is primarily responsible for the issue of NAC in the GDR? Apostle Böttcher, who was given the task by Chief Apostle Fehr or you as chairman of the PG History of the NAK? << D .: >> I. << W .: >> Are you interested in another dialogue with Dr. Schröter interested? << D .: >> Yes. << W .: >> Does the survival strategy argument justify the failure of the NAK to admit complicity for its adjustment and support policy in the Nazi state? << D .: >> Brother Wieland, with this question you anticipated the result. In fairness you have to admit that yourself. Anyone who asks this way can only get one specific answer. I don't say anything about it. You are assuming that an adjustment policy has taken place. << W .: >> I am not assuming, but establishing. Not just an adjustment policy, but a support policy has taken place. That has been proven and documented. << D .: >> Well, I'm not that far yet. << M .: >> The files are all there. You have ten pages from Dr. Eberhardt published. Everything is there. The KG, AG or PG or as this group with its unknown experts call itself once reached into the subject and there were immediately ten pages from the lawyer Eberhardt about the district elder Neuer. Do you know the process with District Elder Neuer? << D .: >> Yes. << 18